I have never quite looked at it like that before. Even though I couldn’t begin to discuss Christianity on this level with you, the question still rings in my head.

So let’s say you have two people. One decides to believe in “God” and everything in the Bible, the other is a skeptic and hold fast to the tangible truths of the universe. The one who believes in God might change a few things in their life here and there, but all in all they end up dying after 60 years just like the skeptic.

Now, let’s suppose the believer is right. Now you have the believer spending enternity in heaven, the skeptic in constant torment in hell.

But what if the skeptic was right. Sure the believer may have “wasted” some time and effort, made some better choices than the skeptic and not lived life to the “fullest”. But now both the believer and the skeptic are in the same position, dead and decomposing.

So at this point, what the harm in believing? If your wrong, you’ll be just like the guy next to you who doesn’t. But if your right, life after death will be so much sweeter!

Hit me up sometime buddy. You know the number.

Personally, I think that funny-looking ostrich created the universe. That might be my religion from now on–ostrichism…not to be confused by ostracism lol. And I might write a really long book and say that the ostrich spoke it to me. Ok not to make fun of religion, but yeah it does seem pretty silly that you can have so much conviction in something that is impossible to prove (and also, conveniently, impossible to disprove). Oh yeah, I had a conversation with someone about God telling Abraham to kill his son…supposedly, God never wanted his son (I think his name was Isaac) to be killed, he was just testing Abraham, so that’s ok. It is necessary to test people to show their faith, apparently.

Thanks to Nick, I know what my next post is going to be about

To Nick–you can’t make me believe in something ridiculous. Point blank. Could I convince you that an ostrich created the universe? Probably not…

“But what if the skeptic was right. Sure the believer may have “wasted” some time and effort, made some better choices than the skeptic and not lived life to the “fullest”.”

1. Are we to assume that skeptics, in general, make poorer choices than believers? I guess I would believe that if I never watched the news, listen to the radio, or read a newspaper which are all rampant with sex, molestation, and money scandals involving believers. I might also believe that if I hadn’t been raised a believer and seen that some of my believer friends were making poorer choices, on a consistent basis, compared to my skeptic friends.

2. Are we to also assume that believers, in general, don’t live full lives…or not as full as skeptics? I thought one of benefits of being a believer was the fulfillemnt it is suppose to bring into their life. Life is what you make of it. Whether you are a believer or skeptic has nothing to do with it.

Kira,

1) Obviously human nature will inevitibly drive both the skeptic and believer to make bad choices all around. I guess in my experience, comparing the S and B, I found that most the skeptics would make poorer choices (not to say that believers were perfect by any stretch)

2) Thats completely the reason i put fullest in quotes. Also, when you tend to hear the wager, fullest is used… and again my experience personally, I’ve been told that by being a believer I’m not expericing life to the “fullest”.

Sorry for that being misleading.

The duality of our universe and thus our perception of it means that there will always be 2 sides to all things.

I personally believe science and religion are really two sides of the same thing.

If God spoke the universe into existence, perhaps he simply said… “run”. Remember Arthur C. Clarke’s famous quote, “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”

Without boring all with the details, We are at an import point in our human experience.

For the first time in human history, we understand the concept of a “virtual existence”, while at the same time the mysteries of human spirituality are under question.

Perhaps these are one in the same. Maybe when we create artificial intelligence, we’ll understand “God” just a little more… and realize when push comes to shove… we’re all simply “information”.

Believe that you have a purpose, an environment to experience love and consequence and a creator. Otherwise…this is all for not.

Thanks for the post Phil.

I’ll agree that science and religion are two sides of the same thing. They are both ways to find answers to the questions about our world. However, like the comic I posted in another one of my posts says, religion starts with the conclusion (that god exists) and tries to explain the world through this assumption, and science starts with the evidence we have and draws conclusions from them. One process is the reverse of the other. Which one can we consider to be more efficient at finding answers to our world?

Yes, there are two realities. There’s ‘universal reality’ and ‘personal reality’. Science is the only way we can distinguish the personal from the universal. If one person ‘feels’ that the earth is flat and one does not, the only way to separate these personal realities is to use verifiable evidence to find out who is correct. Religion deals with faith and ‘feelings’. Science deals with verifiable facts.

I think it’s interesting how people continually say “without god, this is all for nothing”. What exactly does this mean, and what evidence do you have that would suggest this to be the case? We have zero evidence for god existing, so how are you so sure that we’re not existing without him at this very moment?

I think you have to convince yourself that you have a ‘purpose’, not that you actually have one. How does one know what their purpose is?

And do you know HOW god spoke the universe into existence? In other words, what process did he use to create something from nothing?

Why does an all powerful being need to bother with a process? I don’t see why he can’t just speak the universe into existence if he can make hot chicks out of men’s ribs.

Because by saying that god magically created something from nothing, you’re doing nothing more than saying “I don’t know how the universe was created”. Saying “god did it” is the same thing as saying “I don’t know” if you can’t explain HOW god did it. Saying “god spoke the existence into existence” doesn’t give us any more answers about our origin than saying “I don’t know”.

Theists ask atheists to explain exactly how the universe was created, if not by god. Well how can you ask someone to give you a process if you yourself can’t give one. Atheists aren’t the ones claiming to know anything certain about our origin.

Saying ‘god did it’ doesn’t give us any more answers than saying “I don’t know”. The difference is that in saying “I don’t know”, you’re at least leaving the door open for further inquiry. Saying “god did it” closes the book because you already have your pseudo answers.

Saying ‘god did it’ doesn’t give YOU, an atheist, any more answers than saying “I don’t know.” Theists have faith, they believe that God did it, and that’s their answer. Just because it’s an inadequate answer to you doesn’t mean it’s inadequate to someone of faith – you have to understand how differently people of faith operate in their search for answers.

Let me ask you then, Hagana, what is the difference between “god did it” and “Xertlebeebop did it”? Unless we have a clear definition of what god is and how he did what they claim he did, it’s the equivalent of jibberish. Maybe it does make theists feel good to know that god did it, and they’re satisfied with that “answer”, but it’s an unintelligible answer and is the same as saying “the boogeyman did it”.

I’m sure if I told Christians that “the boogeyman scared the universe into existence”, that they would want some evidence of this boogeyman and also how he could possibly “scare” something into existence. What’s the difference? Why would the boogeyman “answer” be dismissed as psychobabble?

Well, more people believe in God than in Xertlebeebop. Christianity works for Christians because the power of mass belief, which is the same source of power for secular morality, and even things like the American economy.

Up until sometime in the early 20th century, the American dollar was backed up by either gold or platinum held in a bank somewhere, but now it’s backed up simply by faith in the American economy.

Morality, when it works, does so because enough people believe that things like genocide, slavery, and chemical weapons should never be allowed, but this is just as much a human construct as Christianity, and derives its power from the same source as religion.

Whatever enough people believe is always going to trump logic or rational thought.

You won’t get any disagreement out of me with any of that. In fact, I was about to actually say that the only reason why anyone believes any of it is because everyone else does. That’s the point I’m trying to make with this site. People only say ‘god bless you’ because everyone else does…and there are billions of other things people do based on ‘conventional wisdom’. It’s this kind of mindless wandering that told us slavery, witch hunts, and a flat earth were accepted.

My only point was that saying “god did it” was equally as nonsensical, and gives us just as much information to our origin as saying “the boogeyman did it”.

Just a comment…people that know what God bless you means say it because they know the power that we have when we declare things with our mouth. Jesus once said, Ask anything and it shall be granted.Of course he is not talking about becoming wealthy or satisfying our lusty desires. He is talking about mere necessity in whatever situation you are faced with. By saying “God bless you” we know with FAITH that he will. But I don’t expect your or anyone else to believe what I’m saying because it depends on what you believe in.

“For since the creation of the world His invisble attributes, His eternal power and divine nature , have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.” What will your excuse be on the Day of Judgement? The verse is Romans 1:20. Psalms 19:1-4 says: “the heavens are telling of the glory of God, and thier expanse is declaring the work of His hands. Day to day it pours forth speech, and night to night it reveals knowledge.”
Scientists know that DNA is a complex language of codes. There are many other scientific evidences of an inteligent Designer but many people reject it for something as un-scientific as evolution because they want to reject a God who they think would be too controlling of their right to do whatever they want. They would accept any fairy tale if it means they don’t have to believe in the God of the Bible.
The majority do believe in God, but not always in the Bible. With over 2000 prophecies proven to be 100% right and all of it’s eternal truth, the Bible has the answer to every question if we will take the time to look there. Life is short. Do you want a life of “fun” and when it’s over you have to be separated from the Creator who made a way for us to have true pleasures with Him? We all need to check it out and seek the truth because eternity is not something to take a chance on. We can truly enjoy life to the fullest when we accept His plan for it. It has been true for me for almost 40 years. I turned my miserable life over to him at the age of 22. My only regret is that I didn’t do it sooner. Whatever you give to God He gives you back (it’s called blessings) a thousand times as much in ways you just can’t imagine. Don’t just take my word for it, check it out. How? Pray, read the Bible, and find some true believers for friends.

Hello Gabby, and thanks for your comment.

I’m not sure the children dying of incurable diseases that pray to Jesus everyday would agree with you though.

Hello Richard, and thanks for your comment.

There are quite a few things I’d like to address about your comment.

1. What you claim to see as evidence is simply not evidence. Telling me that “his eternal power and divine nature have clearly been seen” does not make it so, and is the equivalent of saying the Flying Spaghetti Monster’s “noodley appendages and pasta nature have clearly been seen”. We all know that there is no sensory evidence of ANY god, much less your god, which is why people must have FAITH in order to believe. Nothing has clearly been seen, or you wouldn’t need faith.

2. If I die and I meet a god that wants to punish me because I lived a righteous life and had no evidence that he existed, then I guess I’ll just have to take that punishment. Like I said before, if this god is so willing to punish people for treating other humans like family, then I want nothing to do with this god. And what will be your excuse on judgment day if you find out you’ve worshiped the wrong god all these years? You have faith that you’re worshiping the correct god, and I have faith that (if god exists) that he could care less whether I worship him everyday or not.

3. Non-believers don’t REJECT god. We have no evidence for his existence, and there is a difference. You don’t reject unicorns, you just don’t have any evidence for their existence. It’s not as if I have evidence for god, and I tell him to his face “go away and stop bothering me….I want to sin and be a bad boy”.

4. Zero prophecies have been proven true. These biblical prophecies are no more than horoscopes. If you make the prophecy broad enough, of course it will come true…..but then again, that’s not really a prophecy now is it?

Josh McDowell wrote a book called EVIDENCE THAT DEMANDS A VERDICT. Lee Strobel, an Attorney, examined all the evidence from a legal standpoint. In his book THE CASE FOR CHRIST he shows that there is enough evidence that it could be proven in court that Jesus was who He said He was, and appeared to hundreds of eyewitnesses after He was crucified. There have been many, like McDowell and Strobel, who set out to disprove the claims of Christ and instead became strong Christian believers. Their lives serve as evidence of the truth.
The evidence of creation is creation itself. We know that a Creator exists. That is why it takes more faith to be a true atheist. Thousands of Old Testament prophecies have been documented and proven true. They are not generalities or “broad”, they are specific prophecies about Jesus, Israel and world events.
Jesus granted Thomas’ request for evidence that He had risen from the dead. The evidence is there if we ask Him to show us.
Jurors are told to let evidence speak for itself and not with partiality. We must also be like jurors or all the evidence in the world will not convince us.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/

This website seems to be a good place to start when discussing McDowell’s book.

As for the “evidence of creation is creation itself”, I’m not asking for evidence of creation. I’m asking for evidence of HOW god created something from nothing. I’m also looking for evidence of god’s existence. You can’t look at the trees, sun, moon, and The Simpsons and say “there has to be a god for all of this to exist” since I could look at the same things and say “all of these things are evidence for the Flying Spaghetti Monster.” Evidence doesn’t work like that.

You should be able to consistently demonstrate this evidence. It should be sensory (you should be able to hear, smell, touch, see, taste it). I can give evidence of my existence by consistently typing on this site where you’re able to see my words.

I just find it interesting that christians continually try and give evidence for their belief in god, but say it’s all about faith at the same time. If you had evidence, why would you need to “have faith”?

It does not take any faith to “be a true atheist” (whatever that means anyway) and that’s a pretty tired christian tactic. No Old Testament prophecies have been proven to be true….zero….none. They only appear to be true to those that WANT them to be true. Like I said, it’s the same with a horoscope….sure, every horoscope can be a “true prophecy” if you make it so. It’s called a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Are you trying to tell me that if the bible says something is going to happen and then later on in the bible…it happens….and that’s supposed to be a prophecy? You must be kidding. If you can’t see the error in that “proof”, then I can’t help you.

> “evidence of creation is creation itself”

Hey, my grandmother built the Louvre with her smelly breath. The evidence that my grandmother built the Louvre with her smelly breath is the Louvre itself.

> “Lee Strobel, an Attorney, examined all the evidence from a legal standpoint. In his book THE CASE FOR CHRIST he shows that there is enough evidence that it could be proven in court that Jesus was who He said He was”

That only proves our legal system is flawed.

My theory of how god created the universe without too much detail. First, from our perspective we may see nothing, but viewed from a quantum level, that is just the average of nothing, with matter and anti-matter being created and immediately destroyed. Secondly, nothing can happen without an external influence. So, my thought is, that if He exists, and has infinite power, he could expel sufficient power to split the nothingness into sizable, equal quantities of matter and anti-matter, then hide some of that anti-matter in hammer space. Then he let the two combiner again, creating a great deal of nothing again, a huge explosion from the original power input, and enough matter to create all that is and ever will be. The fact that God exists is mere coincidence though.

Both evloution and intelegent design require faith. On the scientific level intelegent design is more accurate. The big bang theory contradicts many of nturs laws. such as the 1st law of thermodynamics, and the Law of Angular momentum. There have been sitings of dinosours in the worlds largest swamp in Africa. explain that and i will believe evloution

He created it however He pleased. both instantly (say in the blink of an eye) with a word or a thougth, or be it with some time if He wanted to (as when he shaped us with his own hands). God is almighty and anything is possible for Him. He has put laws into our understanding that we are to feel his creation in a way that for us, it took a very long time. But in reality, since anything is possibe for Him, these are just rules. Just like it is a rule that if your hand comes in contact with any “hard” surface, it should stop. Did you not learn thru science that the atom is made of almost nothing?. Everything is made of spoken words, thoughts or rules (let there be light! and there was light). Just look at yourself in a dream, then realize that just like anything is possible in our dreams, so it is to God. A dream is the mirror thru which we can also believe that anything is possible with God who is Spirit and is not bound to a body like we are. And since He’s eternal, for Him, time is of no concern. And who is to understand of his origin? did He have a beginning? For us, because we are like a vapor that soon vanishes, we are limited and so is our undestanding. Just remember: It is not God who is far from us. It is us that stray away from Him thru sin. Maybe one day, Thru his mercy maybe when we are with Him in spirit, he might speak to us about things we never knew!